War has started...

[GeekGirl]

As I remember, soldiers coming back from Vietnam were spit on, or otherwise shunned. It does seem that in the intervening time most people have understood how shameful that was and are able to separate America's policy-makers from those being called on to make the policy happen.

Bird, God bless you and keep you safe.

[Branflakes]

I support our soldiers and every person I know that's against the war has said the same thing. I know people that have been deployed or are about to be (including 'bird). I care about them and all the soldiers I don't know.

But, I think anti-war protests need to continue and need to be louder. Anti-war does not mean anti-soldier or anti-american. It means what it is...against the war. And the second best time to reiterate that opinion is now, during the war. Anti-war protesters have been expressing their support for troops, but no one listens.

And once this mess is over, people need to remember all this and vote their conscience. Maybe we'll put the truly elected guy in office this time. [img]wink.gif[/img]

My rant off.

And if it's not clear, this isn't directed at crazy, just a reply to all the posts. Crazy is one of my fave people here. We just differ in opinion on this issue. Otherwise, he's my twin.

[crazy a]

(Separated at birth, of course. [img]wink.gif[/img] )

So Bran says protests still serve the purpose of letting the people know how they feel. I say they're good for getting a case of blistered feet from all that walking. Ok. People have protested war and protested war for who knows how long. Has it worked? Not to my knowledge. I'm sure one of you who is more informed on past issues can shed light on that.

And I somewhat disagree about "...but no one listens." I don't think it's not that no one listens, as much as no one can hear the support over shouts of "NO WAR FOR OIL!" or some other thing.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2003 09:35 PM: Message edited by: crazy a ]</font>

[AsIs]

The problem is perception.

It is true that most anti-war people (including myself), very much do support the soldiers.

It is also true that ever since Vietnam, where the line between soldier and protests blurred that soldiers view protests against war as anti-military.

It is sad, because I think as a people we have grown to recognize who *makes* war is vastly different than who *fights* the war. I would have more respect for the war we are fighting, if the people who make the decision to fight in it, have something to lose, instead of the fine, young, brave men and women who *will* fight it.

I am currently putting together a care package for JD, oh and 'bird if you are reading, take lots of baby wipes and chapstick with you, those seem to be the two hottest commodities out there right now. In this care package I made up wallet cards, one side has the American Flag with the WTC in the background on a glorious sunny day. The other side has the Statue of Liberty from that same day, with the words Thank You above it. I'm sending JD half a dozen or so of these cards so he can share with his men.

The world is a scary place these days and we are fighting a war that will make it no less scary. Which is just sad.

[Jadian]

Ahh, a place where people are nice when they talk about the war. I have been away too long.

As some one who does march in the peace rallies, I would argue that they do provide a visible forum from which our leaders can see some public opinion. Whether or not this is brushed off - up here in Canada, Cretien is certainly weighing in the opinion of the millions who have marched. The marches are being co-ordinated world wide, I think it's always important to speak up for peace whether or not it's possible (like we speak up for goodness, honesty, and other high ideals).

Also, war is a very tense time, when emotions ride high and people get scared. Marching in a rally is a way to channel those feelings into something positive. I know the second I heard about the bombing I marched to the US Consolute and chanted "Bring the troops home" with three hundred other people. Previous to that, I was wibbling on the couch and lashing at myself for being so self-indulgent. So I wouldn't call rallies useless - they may not do a lot for peace but they do a lot for people who believe in peace. Better that then going to bars and getting into fist fights because there's no other release [img]wink.gif[/img]

And I hope they send the troops home (even if it doesn't happen), this gigantic mess is not their doing or their responsibility.

[Lulu]

Ditto!

Anti war protests are very important. It's how we make our voices and our opinions heard as citizens. Thank you 1st ammendment! The government and the world need to know that many of us in the United States do not agree with these actions. Maybe opposition is ignored by policymakers, but at least it is expressed!

As for supporting our troops, I don't know a single person that isn't hoping for their safe return. I think that's part of the issue. Who wants to see their friends and family sacrificed for a less that worthy cause? It sounds like some people are confusing opposition to war with opposition to our troops. 'No blood for oil' means Americans too!

Now that it's started, i just hope we get Saddam and finish it quickly. We can't turn back now. But I'm still morally troubled by this war and intend to continue making my feelings known.

(And BTW- if I have to hear another vague, snide, repetitive, condescending speech about 'partriotism' and 'good vs. evil' by our pseudo-president I'm gonna gag!)

[David A]

In comparison with America, here in Britain we don't have much in the way of a written constitution to safeguard our democracy. But in the democracy we do have, one of our fundamental freedoms is the right to peacefully march in public to show our opinion. Now, maybe protests and marches won't stop wars taking place, and they certainly won't stop dictators or terrorists in distant lands, but they do show clearly that when our government takes or supports actions that are not clearly supported by the majority of the populace, we are dissatisfied. The right for us to show this dissatisfaction, and to make any and all under-represented opinions known is something that should be cherished and encouraged, whatever the outcome.

[sarabiga]

Thank you Lulu. Someone had to say that. (I would add that US has recently treated even their own allies as invalid... and this is so dangerous!)

Last month I was in Rome with my girlfriend and other 2 or 3 MILLIONS of people to demonstrate for peace, and I can tell you that was something. How can I make you understand what it was like to be there? So many different people, Americans and Palestinians, young punks and boy scouts, families with their little children, hundreds of mayors and administrators with their official gonfalons, thousands of ordinary people who'd never been to rallies before, labor unions and so many others, all melted in a thick rainbow sea...
And I KNOW it wasn't useless, because of the new consciuosness you could feel rouse around you then. Maybe it was similar to what people felt in Seattle a few years ago, but it was a different thing altogether, because just a few people in Rome would have defined theirselves as no or new global. It was something bigger. We felt like history had just stopped by for a second, and we had a short time, just to choose between the right of force and the force of rights. Those international rights which are slowly instituted notwithstanding the US governement, which is the first to pubblicly despise and oppose them.
European governements could have been decisive, we just got sure they could hear us loud.

It's so sad now, you know, and i'm not talking about the war or the peace movement. I think about you as my friends, and I used to live this board as a sanctuary, years ago, when my life was a blurry mess.
My anguish is as strong as if my best friends had been brainwashed.
I knew I could have felt uneasy returning here, but I missed you so much. And I needed to prove to myself I still love you.
I'm not afraid of war, I'm not afraid of tyrants and terrorists: I'm scared of the hate trying to grow in my heart. It's a daily fight, to erase it back to the anger from which is born.
I've never been anti-american, it's ridiculous, and I'm a quiet girl, but now every time I see a fighter flying over my head, so low I can see all it's missiles, I hear myself swearing out loud as I feel this huge hate blacken my chest... and I feel like crying.
Really, the only thing that pilot could do to make me proud of him is to get off and get drunk with me.
This is my problem, and I'm one of the quiet ones. I live in a western allied country, I like to read American comics, and I used to stay up at night to read and write on this board until I went to sleep thinking in American English... and I've gone this far. Just think about the ones who are not quiet, or who are not westerners.
What have you done? I mean, what has your governement done? Can you realize it? Will you still have the courage, next time (and God knows how I hope there won't be a next time), to ask: "Why do they hate us so much?". I'm not simply talking about Iraq of course (who knows who's next), but of respect toward all the rest of the world.

Yes, my friends, let's hope this war to be brief, and not just to spare their/your lives. The more it lasts, the more like a cancer hate spreads itself, making the world a far worse place to live in. And a more violent one.

I feel the urge to hug you all, and hold you tight.


P.S. I'm happy to see you're around, Jadian. You're one of the voices I'd missed most.
P.P.S. David A, Italian constitution guarantees our freedom of speech and of demonstration, and also claims that "Italy repudiates war as a way of resolving international quarrels", but this doesn't stop our governement to thread on it...

[Vox]

There is no unspoken axiom. It is plain as day. Let me spell it out for you.

UN resolutions were passed that clearly stated that because of past transgressions Iraq was to disarm, open up to inspectors completely or face military action.

Did they disarm? Not on your life.

Did they open up to inspectors completely? Not hardly.

What're we supposed to do. "Awww, you're a swiwwy wittle coutwy. Yes you are! Yes you are! Awwww, you made a boo-boo. We'll just overlook that like the past 12+ boo-boos you made!"

Sorry, no. None of the "options" presented by any other country, esp. France, Germany and the Russia is new. They have all been tried. Several times.

The unspoken axiom here is that we should always give in and never, ever, ever, follow through on the verbage of the resolutions passed. The problem is that makes those resolutions farces. Tell me, do you think any regime that has attacked its neighbors in the past and has made it plain they will do so again if given the chance would really care about the following.

By UN resolution blah blah blah Iraq is to disarm all weapons of mass distruction, allow inspectors unrestricted access to all areas at a moments notice and do so before such-and-such date and time or else! Uhm, or else we'll pass another resolution giving them another 2 years! And then another for 2 years... and then another.

This isn't "They thumbed their noses at us, hit 'em" this is "Ok, they deserve another chance."

"Ok, they broke that one, here's one more."

"They're still having problems. Here's another."

"Nope, they're still not doing it. And another."

"One more."

"Can I have a stamp here that says, And one more chance. Thanks."

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

How many's that? Hrm, you know, I don't think they're ever going to shape up.

You never answered my question, When is enough, enough.

We've given them chances.

We've tried other methods.

We've given them more chances.

We've tried even more methods.

Name a number, When is enough enough?

20?

25?

100?

In what time frame.

I'm serious. I want to know. Because otherwise it is just a broken record that sounds like this:

"And one more chance"

How many Kurds need to be gassed in their sleep? How many Shi' Mulahs have to be shot in the back of the head? How many Iraqs have to be imprisoned before you stop chanting "Give peace a chance" and understand that you may hate war and killing and death but these sick pathetic bastards would murder their own children to stay in a positon of power.

Yeah, right "And one more chance" as timorins' and Tutsies moan in their mass graves as the genocide train roles on.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2003 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Vox ]</font>

[AsIs]

Vox, I absolutely adore you, but give me a break.

We sanction people like Saddam all the f**king time. We create monsters and then get pissy when they stop doing what we want them to.

We are destoying Iraq for many reasons, and we *may* ultimately do some good there amongst this mess. But the reasons we are there are not politically altruistic. Many of the soldiers may be there to free the people, but our government is there because:
- our economy is a disaster;
- Saddam tried to assissinate our leaders daddy and he is pissed. And our president was stupid enough to say it out loud publically on at least one occasion;
- They have a hell of a oil field. And oil makes the engines run, because solar energy is renewable and therefore not profitable.
- We can't bomb the hell out anyone else right now and we *need* to show we are a superpower dag-nab-it.

Yeah, those countries have oil, oooh, they must all be having cute chicks feed them grapes. The reality is that a small percentage of people have money in those countries, to many food and water is a luxery. And those are the people we are bombing the hell out of. Not intentionally, but we are. If we held the ourselves accountable to the standards we hold other countries, our polititions would be doing some hard time. There is a reason why many of them have to get clearance from the state department to go on vacation in outer mongolia, they have to see if their butts would end up in a international tribunal or worse.

This is a political war and shame on us for that. If this was a friggin war to save the people we would have done it when Bush Sr. or earlier was president.

Yeah, Saddam has ignored the resolutions. But bombing Iraq while N. Korea is testing it's nukes is a bit hypocritical no matter how you look at it.

G-d bless our troops and the innocents in Iraq and elsewhere.